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[Senate Hearing 119-503] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] S. Hrg. 119-503 EXPOSING FRAUD IN AMERICA ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION __________ JULY 15, 2026 __________ Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 64-381 PDF WASHINGTON : 2026 ======================================================================= COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS RAND PAUL, Kentucky, Chairman RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin GARY C. PETERS, Michigan JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma MAGGIE WOOD HASSAN, New Hampshire RICK SCOTT, Florida RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania BERNIE MORENO, Ohio ANDY KIM, New Jersey JONI ERNST, Iowa RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona ASHLEY MOODY, Florida ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan William E. Henderson III, Staff Director Christina N. Salazar, Deputy Staff Director and Chief Counsel Rachel S. Emmons, Professional Staff Member Christopher J. Mulkins, Minority Staff Director Alan S. Kahn, Minority Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel Joseph A. Martin, Minority Committee Aide Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk Ashley A. Gonzalez, Records Clerk C O N T E N T S ------ Opening statements: Page Senator Paul................................................. 1 Senator Peters............................................... 3 Senator Johnson.............................................. 10 Senator Lankford............................................. 14 Senator Scott................................................ 16 Senator Moreno............................................... 18 Senator Ernst................................................ 20 Senator Moody................................................ 22 Senator Hawley............................................... 25 Prepared statements: Senator Paul................................................. 33 Senator Peters............................................... 35 WITNESSES WEDNESDAY, JULY 15, 2026 Nick Shirley, Independent Journalist............................. 5 James O'Keefe, Chief Executive Officer, O'Keefe Media Group...... 6 Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette, Acting Vice President of Policy & Governmental Affairs, Project on Government Oversight.......... 9 Alphabetical List of Witnesses Hedtler-Gaudette, Dylan: Testimony.................................................... 9 Prepared statement........................................... 45 O'Keefe, James: Testimony.................................................... 6 Prepared statement........................................... 40 Shirley, Nick: Testimony.................................................... 5 Prepared statement........................................... 38 APPENDIX Minority Staff Report............................................ 54 Federal Fumbles Report........................................... 113 Senator Hawley's charts.......................................... 149 Senator Ernst's charts........................................... 152 FBI Press Release................................................ 154 Law360 Article................................................... 156 Statement from Defense Credit Union Council...................... 158 Statement from the Hon. Michael J. Missal........................ 162 EXPOSING FRAUD IN AMERICA ---------- WEDNESDAY, JULY 15, 2026 U.S. Senate, Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs, Washington, DC. The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Rand Paul, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. Present: Senators Paul [presiding], Johnson, Lankford, Scott, Hawley, Moreno, Ernst, Moody, Peters, and Hassan. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PAUL\1\ Chairman Paul. The Committee will come to order. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Paul appears in the Appendix on page 33. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- In my office, I keep a clock that measures our national debt in real time. This morning that clock stood at nearly $40 trillion. Washington taxes the American people. Washington borrows against our grandchildren's future earnings. Then Washington sends billions of dollars out the door, often without knowing who receives it, if any service was performed, or even if the business exists. The Federal Government loses hundreds of billions of dollars to fraud every year. When the money disappears, politicians act surprised. No private business could survive this way. A bank confirms an account exists before wiring money. A credit card company flags suspicious charges in seconds. An insurance company verifies that the patient exists and the treatment occurred before paying a claim. They verify first because it is their money on the line. But when the money belongs to the taxpayer, Washington pays first and asks questions later--if it asks them at all. Our first witness, Nick Shirley, decided to see for himself. In Minneapolis, he visited supposed daycare centers that had collected millions of dollars from taxpayers. He found industrial buildings with blacked-out windows. No playgrounds. No children. No employees. No one answering the door. These were not complicated accounting irregularities buried deep inside a Federal database. The question was obvious: What exactly are taxpayers paying for? Mr. Shirley found the same warning signs at autism centers, home health companies, and other providers collecting large government reimbursements. In California, he found hospice and health care companies stacked into a single office complex, some marked by nothing more than a sheet of printer paper taped to a door. Many could not answer basic questions about their own patients. A private insurer would have stopped payment immediately. The Federal Government kept writing the checks. Prosecutors have now charged 15 people in Minnesota for schemes involving more than $90 million. One autism-services scheme alone, $46.6 million in fraud. The Justice Department (DOJ) calls it the largest Medicaid autism fraud case in its history. Prosecution is necessary, but it comes after the money is gone. The fraudsters have already been paid. The families who needed care have already been cheated. Taxpayers may only recover pennies on the dollar. Government should verify before it pays. Does the provider exist? Are real people performing real work? Are the patients eligible? Were the services necessary? Are the invoices honest? These are not radical demands. It is what hardworking American taxpayers deserve. When government refuses to verify, it does not merely endanger taxpayer dollars. It destroys public confidence in our elections. In California, James O'Keefe revealed a cash-for-ballots election fraud scheme targeting homeless men and women who were offered cash, cigarettes, and marijuana in exchange for signatures on petitions and voter registration forms. So far one individual exposed in Mr. O'Keefe's undercover video footage pled guilty to Federal charge. Mr. Shirley followed the money. Mr. O'Keefe followed the signatures. Both found the same machine: a system that rewards volume, discourages scrutiny, and depends upon someone in authority looking the other way. In one system, government counts the claims and sends the money without asking who received it or what work was performed. In the other, officials accept registrations without asking who signed them or whether the process was legitimate. Whether Washington is distributing taxpayer dollars or safeguarding the ballot, government processes first and investigates later. Then, years after the damage is done, it announces an indictment and expects applause. Fraud is not an ordinary cost of government. It is theft of a taxpayer's earnings, theft of needed services, and theft of a legitimate vote. Our witnesses went where government investigators had not gone and asked the questions the bureaucracy refused to ask. I thank them for their relentless commitment to exposing fraud and demanding accountability. The American people deserve better from their government including Congress, who keeps writing the check. Senator Peters. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PETERS\1\ Senator Peters. Thank you, Chairman Paul. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Peters appears in the Appendix on page 35. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The government has a responsibility to ensure that taxpayer dollars are used efficiently, effectively, and responsibly. When there is evidence of waste, fraud, and abuse in taxpayer- funded programs, the government must take action to recover the costs and hold wrongdoers accountable. In my time serving in this Committee, I have been proud to work across the aisle with many of my colleagues to improve oversight of taxpayer dollars and fight fraud. I worked with Senator Ernst and Senator Hassan to pass bipartisan legislation to prevent conflicts of interest in Federal contracts. After learning that a company was being paid with tax dollars to advise the government on oversight of the pharmaceutical industry, while simultaneously being paid by pharma companies to help market their drugs, we passed a bill to end this practice and to make sure taxpayer dollars are being used in Americans' best interests. I worked with Senator Kennedy to pass a bipartisan bill to improve government data access, which will save millions of taxpayer dollars by preventing improper payments to deceased people. I worked with Senator Carper and Senator McCaskill to block scams that were hurting small businesses by fraudulently selling services to secure government contracts, services that the government already provides to small businesses for free. When Congress was responding to the unprecedented Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic with significant emergency spending, I worked with Senator Johnson to establish the Pandemic Response Accountability Committee (PRAC). We fought to ensure there were strong oversight mechanisms including alongside those resources because we knew that bad actors would try to take advantage of the situation. To date, the PRAC has supported more than 50 investigative partners in over 1,200 investigations and has identified $2.5 billion in potential fraud that the government is now continuing to try to recover. In fact, the PRAC's model has been so successful that, Chairman Paul, you worked to expand its oversight responsibilities as part of the Big Beautiful Bill. It is an unfortunate reality that there is always the risk of fraud in government programs, which is why we need strong controls. A strong oversight of government spending to ensure taxpayer dollars are going to help the American people and not the fraudsters. Our Federal Government had more of these strong oversight mechanisms up until last year when President Trump fired 19 independent Inspectors General (IGs), in violation of the law. He removed experienced, independent investigators with a strong record of identifying waste and fraud and replaced them with cronies. It is hard to overstate the damage that has been done to independent oversight. Many of the watchdogs we count on to identify wrongdoing are now fearful they will be fired or retaliated against just for doing their jobs. On top of that, President Trump created Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) and let inexperienced staffers, led by Elon Musk, make arbitrary cuts across the Federal Government. DOGE was supposed to save $1 trillion. Instead, their reckless cuts caused chaos and may have actually cost taxpayers more in the long run, as the Administration had to rehire workers and reinstate contracts that they canceled. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent (UC) to enter into the record a report\1\ that I released last May. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The minority report appears in the Appendix on page 54. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chairman Paul. Without objection. Senator Peters. Thank you. This report which found that the Federal Government could have saved taxpayers more than $175 billion by implementing recommendations from the 19 independent inspectors general that President Trump fired unlawfully, far more money than DOGE ever delivered. President Trump is also proposing a new scheme to control Federal grant dollars that will allow him to direct taxpayer dollars to political allies and punish partisan enemies, all while undermining independent oversight. Not only have President Trump's actions created an environment where fraud can thrive, but incredibly, he has also pardoned multiple convicted fraudsters, who combined have committed billions of dollars' worth of fraud, pardoned by President Trump. These pardons wiped out an estimated $1.3 billion in restitution and have frequently gone to wealthy and well-connected individuals. It sends a signal that if you have the money or the President's favor, you can commit fraud without consequences. Finally, if we are going to talk about fraud, waste, and abuse we must also talk about how President Trump has abused his public office to enrich himself and his family, not improve the everyday lives of Americans or protect taxpayer dollars. Since taking office in 2025, President Trump and his family have made an estimated $2 billion from cryptocurrency alone. If this Committee is serious about tackling fraud, I hope we could work together to hold the Administration accountable for the ways in which they have undercut independent oversight and fulfill our own role to conduct oversight of the Administration's actions that have unquestionably enabled fraud. We need to restore the strong, experienced, and independent watchdogs who have a proven track record of finding fraud and getting money back for the American people, rather than amplifying sensationalized social media takes that are more focused on getting views than on actually getting the truth. Mr. Chairman, we share the goal of saving taxpayer dollars and making our government more efficient. When you are ready to bring in Federal officials to testify, conduct oversight, and advance additional legislation to crack down on fraud, my colleagues and I are ready to do the work. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Paul. It is the practice of the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee (HSGAC) to swear in witnesses. Will each of you please stand and raise your right hand. Do you swear that the testimony you will give before this Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you. God? Mr. Shirley. I do. Mr. O'Keefe. I do. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. I do. Chairman Paul. Thank you. You may be seated. Our first witness will be Nick Shirley. He is an independent journalist known for his on-the-ground investigations which he publishes on his social media page and the Anti-Fraud Club website. Mr. Shirley. TESTIMONY OF NICK SHIRLEY,\1\ INDEPENDENT JOURNALIST Mr. Shirley. My name is Nick Shirley. I am a 100 percent independent journalist who seeks each day to serve ``We the People'' of the United States with a mission to show the world the reality of things as they really are. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Shirley appears in the Appendix on page 38. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- America was built and created by strong men and women who loved America and never would have thought to rob, steal, or cheat from its very own citizens. Unfortunately, today, America's good faith has been abused by others, often foreigners, who seek to harm, rob, and cheat America. Through my efforts, I have exposed billions of dollars of fraud and helped save America hundreds of billions of dollars for years to come. When we talk about fraud, we are talking about money that is being stolen from hardworking, law-abiding, taxpaying citizens. This issue has nothing to do with political parties. No dollar says Republican or Democrat on it. When a fraudster commits fraud, he or she steals from all of us. Last December, I published a 43-minute long video exposing widespread fraud in Minnesota. That video became one of the most viewed videos in internet history and gained over 4 billion views in just seven days across all forms of media. The fraud was so obvious that the fraudsters were not even trying to hide it. The infamous Quality Learning Center was born, and that video has become one of the most consequential videos in American history by the amount of legislation it has created. Since posting it, over 30 bills have been created and introduced in Congress regarding fraud, a new fraud task force has been created, and the Treasury is working on new systems to stop fraud at unprecedented levels. I helped to ignite a war on fraud across the country. People wonder how come this fraud became so big and how come it became so rampant, and the reason is that no one actually ever really looked into it. When Elon Musk offered to help by creating DOGE, people burned his factories, bombed his cars, and politicians even celebrated his company's stock going down. Elon was right when he said, ``The fraudsters complain the loudest.'' By exposing the fraud, I also exposed the politicians and media who worked for years to cover it up. Governor Tim Walz labeled my work as ``white supremacy'' and called me a ``far- right, delusional conspiracy theorist.'' Meanwhile, he dropped out of reelection and he even said he has ended his political career. Now the highest government-funded daycare in Minnesota has pleaded guilty to daycare fraud, and the largest autism fraud bust in American history has been exposed. Where is Tim Walz and the media now? It just so happens that over 80 percent of the fraud committed in Minnesota is by the Somali population. After Minnesota, I exposed widespread fraud in California within the daycare and hospice community, where an impossible one-third of Americans on hospice care were set to die in Los Angeles. The next day, the Governor, Gavin Newsom, posted an artificial intelligence (AI)-generated image of myself, trying to mock and discredit my work. Only days later, he and his Attorney General (AG) both tried to take credit for exposing the fraud. Now the Attorney General's wife has created a bill that would make it criminal to expose fraud. The ``Stop Nick Shirley Act,'' also known as AB 2624, will help fraudsters cover up their crimes and prevent themselves from being exposed specifically in immigrant communities. Politicians often use immigrant communities to commit fraud. Why would they allow this to happen? In California, MediCal, their Medicaid program, has now more than doubled from $108 billion in 2022 to a proposed $222 billion while enrollment only rose by less than one percent. The system is filled with bad actors and fraudsters. In New York City, government-funded adult daycares pay for elderly Koreans and Chinese to play ping pong and do tai chi at the taxpayer's expense. An impossible number of patients are registered, and those patients receive kickbacks for attending and signing up their friends. Over $2 billion has gone to these fraudsters at taxpayers' expense. I am just one person doing the work of many people. If the government and media is not going to do their job to help America it is the responsibility of strong men and women, however old they may be, to do it. I am doing it. Despite the threats and burdens that come, it must be done. I am doing it with the help of everyday Americans that government paid officials are supposed to do, and the media teams across the country have millions of dollars to do this, yet they don't look into this fraud, and they have actually, quite literally, failed us. If we as Americans do not stand up to protect our country, we will lose our country. Fraud is so rampant in the United States that I could go to all 50 states and uncover millions of tax dollars being defrauded, wasted, and abused. It is my wish while sitting in front of you guys today that you take action and help Americans by cracking down on all the fraud and to simply put Americans first. Thank you. Chairman Paul. Our next witness is James O'Keefe. He is an American investigative journalist and media entrepreneur. He is the founder of Project Veritas and currently serves as the founder and Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of O'Keefe Media Group. Mr. O'Keefe. TESTIMONY OF JAMES O'KEEFE,\1\ CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, O'KEEFE MEDIA GROUP Mr. O'Keefe. Chairman Paul, Ranking Member Peters, and Members of this Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. O'Keefe appears in the Appendix on page 40. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- In February 2026, I disguised myself as a homeless person and approached a petition circulator on Skid Row, near San Pedro and Sixth Street in downtown Los Angeles (LA). I saw cash chipped to his shirt, which I thought was odd. The petitor circulator told me, ``We are going to need 14 signatures and we are going to pay you two dollars.'' One of our reporters, disguised as a heroin addict, with track marks on his arm, asked the homeless, ``What's going on here?'' They all replied with one word: money. We recorded a woman named Brown handing over cash as payment in exchange for a homeless person to register vote in a Federal election. Now, that is a Federal crime. Congress expressly criminalizes payments to people to register to vote? Why? Because the vote is sacred. It is an act of conscience, of judgment. When it becomes contaminated by incentives, when it is for sale, it undermines the sanctity and fairness of the process designed to elect those who represent us. Our investigation contributed to a Federal criminal prosecution with U.S. Attorney Bill Essayli saying, ``Once I saw these videos, I went to work.'' Brown described the whole thing as a, ``pyramid game.'' Then came the irony. In the neighborhood of non governmental organizations (NGO's) in Los Angeles, designed to protect the vulnerable homeless population, the person being confronted by the NGO's was not the fraudster. It was the reporter exposing the fraud. Just minutes after we exposed these felonies I was approached by a man who identified himself as being with the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD), and he began to record me. When I pressed him he admitted he was actually with the L.A. Homeless Authority. Under California law that is a crime. This was also a form of fraud, albeit covering up for the fraud happening across the street. But it got worse. We witnessed petition circulators giving marijuana in exchange for signatures on the petitions, and when they spotted our camera they told one of our reports, ``I'm going to knock your bleeping ass. Don't come over here again. I'm going to beat your ass.'' He threatened us. We decided to band together. We formed a citizen-journalism justice league featuring Savannah Hernandez, Cam Higby, Anthony Rubin, and Jon Choe, and over the next few weeks we caught dozens of these cash and drug exchanges for signatures on the petitions. Together, over the course of those next few weeks, we released reporting that prompted the Governor of California not to attack us but to say that what we did was important and the activity should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. We also found, next, ballot petitioners asking homeless to sign in other people's names. We recorded over the shoulder one petitioner who took out his phone to access an online database to pull voter rolls and addresses. Quote, ``I have an Idaho address,'' said the voter. The petitioner says, ``I'm going to give you an address to write. Your name is Robert.'' Another says, ``I'm giving you a new name.'' He visited the residence of those people, who were disenfranchised. One of the names was Vicky Walker. The homeowner at that address said for nine years he received election mail in the name of this Vicky Walker. In fact, he told me he had received so many ballots in the name of Vicky Walker he named his cat Vicky Walker. We returned to ask for comment from the petitioner who was offering drugs in exchange for signatures, the same individual who had threatened us earlier. He grabbed the petitions and hid them in his car. When we caught up to him, one of his associates charged at us and punched my producer in the neck. The two men then charged at me. Right before they struck us, Cam Higby deployed pepper spray. With pepper spray in their eyes, the two men continued to attempt to assail us. My colleague, Brayden, and I had no choice but to run for our lives. To this day, all the fraudsters that committed State crimes roam free. This, as Nick has said, is not a political issue. It is not a partisan issue. It is not a conspiracy theory. It is most certainly not circumstantial evidence. Everything I have testified to you here, all the quotes, and many more, are all recorded on tape. The question before this Committee is not whether the fraud exists or whether it is happening. Oftentimes in politics you all debate the facts. The facts are what they are. The question is why the incentives allow us it flourish. There is money in fraud, but there is no money in exposing the fraud. When laws are ignored, without consequences, fraud becomes the incentive. Fraud becomes the model of life. Tony Moore, one of the coordinators for the ballot petitions, told us, ``If there's no consequences, it doesn't matter.'' That is the point. I do not have subpoena power. Us journalists do not have the power to do anything but expose. They campaign in this building about freedom and protecting democracy and preventing disenfranchisement, and how nobody is above the law. But if those principles are not enforced, when they are violated in broad daylight, they are not principles at all. They are slogans. Without accountability, our notion of freedom is just an illusion. Thank you. Chairman Paul. Senator Peters will introduce our third witness. Senator Peters. Mr. Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette is the Acting Vice President of Policy and Governmental Affairs at the Project on Government Oversight (POGO). Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette is a nationally recognized expert in a range of good government issues, including government ethics, anti-corruption policy, separation of powers, the rule of law, and government operations integrity and effectiveness. He has testified before Congress on eight separate occasions on a variety of topics, including preventing waste and fraud, defense spending accountability, judicial ethics, and undue foreign influence. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette and POGO have routinely engaged with Congress on bipartisan and pragmatic solutions to address government program integrity and protect taxpayer dollars. Thank you for joining us today, and we appreciate your testimony. TESTIMONY DYLAN HEDTLER-GAUDETTE,\1\ ACTING VICE PRESIDENT OF POLICY & GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS, PROJECT ON GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. Chairman Paul, Ranking Member Peters, and Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. My name is Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette, and I am the Acting Vice President of Policy and Government Affairs at the Project on Government Oversight. We are a nonpartisan, independent watchdog organization with 45 years of experience in promoting accountability, transparency, and effectiveness in the Federal Government. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette appears in the Appendix on page 45. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you wouldn't mind I would like to start with some data to paint a bit of a picture for us. We currently spend about $7 trillion a year in terms of our Federal budget. In Fiscal Year (FY) 2025, we ran a $1.8 trillion Federal budget deficit. We currently carry a Federal debt load of about $40 trillion, and interest payments on that debt are the third-largest annual expenditure we make each year, the fourth-largest of which is our defense budget, which now comes in at a cool $1 trillion, and if President Trump has his way that number will balloon to a staggering $1.5 trillion this year. Why do I start with this big picture data? It is important to realize that vast sums of taxpayer dollars are at stake when we talk about the issues of waste, fraud, and abuse. It is equally important to remember that a Federal Government has an equally vast responsibility and an obligation to be the best possible and most responsible caretaker and steward of those taxpayer dollars. We have more data that can tell us a little bit about well the Federal Government is delivering on that responsibility. Recently, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) issued a report in which it estimated that in Fiscal Year 2025, the Federal Government issued $186 billion in improper payments, bringing the total of improper payments issued since Fiscal Year 2003 to $3 trillion or thereabouts. GAO also estimated that in 2024 alone, we lost somewhere between $230 and $520 billion to fraud. Last, GAO tells us and projects that if we were to work harder to eradicate duplication, fragmentation, and overlapping in Federal Government programs, we would be able to save $100 billion a year. Now, what does this data tell us? This tells, pretty categorically, that we, and in particular the Federal Government, are not doing a good enough job overseeing and managing the country's precious public resources, and the only way to get there is to promote actionable, commonsense, pragmatic reforms, and it is those exact kinds of reforms that I am here to talk about today. First, we must look to internal watchdogs and oversight practitioners, such as inspectors general, the Government Accountability Office, the Office of Government Ethics (OGE), the Office of Special Counsel (OSC), and others, and we must strengthen, empower, and fully resource them to perform their essential functions, as the taxpayers' eyes and ears, within the Federal Government. Second, we must also provide safe and secure reporting and disclosure channels for Federal whistleblowers. Courageous individuals from within the government often blow the whistle and expose some of the worst waste, fraud, abuse, corruption, and malfeasance, and they are often all too common on the receiving end of reprisal and retaliation for doing so. It is imperative that Congress create the safe and secure disclosure channels while also strengthening protection from retaliation and reprisal for Federal whistleblowers. Last, the technical architecture that the Federal Government currently uses to monitor, track, analyze, and assess Federal funding is woefully inadequate. Key databases and resources like USAspending.gov and the system for award management are in desperate need of overhaul and modernization. Congress should start by dramatically expanding the quality and quantity of the data and information required to be reported and collected up and down the spending chain. Congress should also work to bring parity in data collection and information reporting across program categories and spending types. Last, Congress should also hold Federal agencies' feet to the fire to comply with existing reporting and disclosure requirements which agencies are often not doing at all. The upshot here is that waste, fraud, abuse, and corruption are real, and they are pernicious, and we must do something about them. The only way we are going to solve them is by some of the reforms and others that I have laid out here today. But we are not going to solve them by focusing on sensationalistic anecdotes, clout-chasing viral internal videos, or provocative pseudo-documentaries. We are also not going to solve the problem by demonizing and scapegoating specific communities and constituencies based on partisan, political, and ideological agenda. Thank you again for inviting me here to testify, and I look forward to your questions. Chairman Paul. We are going to begin a round of questions, and I am going to defer my time to Senator Johnson. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHNSON Senator Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have had a couple of jabs at Nick Shirley's videos. The only reason that we are taking fraud seriously is because of that independent journalism sitting in front of us, the fact that he exposed, in all its gory detail, how grotesque, blatant, and rampant it is. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, listen, I agree with most of your prescriptions here. As Chairman of the Committee, we had you testify. I have been supportive of Inspectors General. We have a couple of Inspectors General resining ahead of the posse, because they are not necessarily perfect, as well. But the problem I have with all the prescriptions is it has not worked. The lowest estimate I hear of fraud in the Federal Government is $250 billion a year. I think you said $230. We had, in a Subcommittee hearing, LexisNexis saying it is $1 trillion. It was not really until this Administration with DOGE, and that effort has also been denigrated here, that we started going in there and actually doing something about it. Now we have Dr. Oz going in, again, I think partly because of Nick Shirley's revelation that a third of the hospice centers in America were in Los Angeles County. The way we have prevented the fraud is we stopped funding 400 of them, and not one of those hospice centers complained. It is the tip of the iceberg. Mr. Shirley, again, I commend you on your phenomenal journalism. Quite honestly, when I saw that happening I thought, why didn't I think of that? Why didn't my staff do those videos? Journalism is crucial to this. You are a partner in what we need to do. It is only because of those videos that exposed that we have any chance of trying to rein in this beast. But you mentioned the Stop Nick Shirley Act. Can you describe that in greater detail? Mr. Shirley. Yes. So that is bill, I think created by Mia Bonta, the wife of the Attorney General of California. The official title is AB 2624, and it is to make it essentially illegal to expose and to film outside of immigration support service providers. That means any entity that provides services to illegal migrants, whether that be health care or legal fees. If I were to go out and film a video in front of one of these locations, perhaps an NGO, like Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights (CHIRLA), that has received over $80 million from the government, and they give me a piece of paper and they say, ``Hey, you cannot publish that video,'' if that bill passes it will be illegal for me to document that. Senator Johnson. It really ought to be renamed the Protect Medicaid Fraudster Act. That would probably be a better description of that, correct? Mr. Shirley. Correct. Senator Johnson. Why do you think you have such pushback from our colleagues on the other side of the aisle, just like the denigration here from the Ranking Member, from Governor Newsom? Why is that? You would think that trying to eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse would be a completely nonpartisan issue. Mr. Shirley. Because they, quite frankly, need the fraud. They actually need the fraud. Senator Johnson. Mr. O'Keefe, I have a lot more questions, but I am not understanding. What were these petitions about? They were paying money for signatures on petitions, generally pushed forward by nongovernmental organizations which, by the way, we do not track how much money is expended. Of the $7.5 trillion of expenditures we have no idea how much funnels eventually through NGO's. So you have them paying dollars for signing petitions, and then you also have them paying dollars for voter registration. Have you kind of followed that through? What is that all about? Mr. O'Keefe. Yes, Senator. One is a California State crime to fraudulently sign in someone else's name to get something on the California ballot initiative, and the other is a Federal crime, where there is Federal jurisdiction, where you pay someone in order to get them to register to vote. Senator Johnson. Again, these were petitions to get a referendum on the ballot in California. Mr. O'Keefe. That is correct. Senator Johnson. So it did not make sense to me about the registration. They were signing up fake names or fake addresses. I would think if you are really going to commit election fraud you would sign up legitimate names, legitimate addresses so that you could basically harvest those ballots and vote for who you wanted to vote. Mr. O'Keefe. Yes. In one instance we looked over the shoulder, and a petitioner logged into a website, something called SigValid.com, and accessed currently registered voters, using their real names and real addresses. We were unable to determine or ascertain what this SigValid.com is, but we believe that your Committee has subpoena power to try to find out what that is. Senator Johnson. That would be my office. Both Chairman Paul and myself have subpoena power. If you need it we are more than happy to use it. I am making that offer to both Mr. Shirley and to you, Mr. O'Keefe. Mr. Shirley. We will followup with you. Thank you. Senator Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Paul. Senator Peters. Senator Peters. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, as you know, President Trump fired 19 Inspectors General, the independent watchdogs tasked by Congress with fighting waste, fraud, and abuse in government programs. On May 21, 2025, I issued a report that revealed that in Fiscal Year 2024 alone, those fired IGs had collectively identified over $50 billion of government savings through their work. Since then, President Trump has fired additional IGs and has cut funding and staff to the oversight agencies, some by more than a third. My question for you, sir, is do partisan attacks on independent oversight benefit fraudsters? Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. Yes, I would say they absolutely benefit fraudsters. They politicize the entire endeavor of going after waste, fraud, and abuse, which is literally the mission statement and reason for existence of watchdogs like Inspectors General. Senator Peters. How can Congress better support and defend independent and nonpartisan oversight of government programs, in your estimation? Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. Sure. I touched on this a little bit in my opening statement and in more detail in my written statement. But there are a number of preexisting entities such as inspector general, such as the Government Accountability Office. We do not need to reinvent the wheel there. We just need to strengthen, empower, and protect those entities. We need to give them the resources they need to conduct their important work of oversight. Most importantly, we need to provide more political insulation and independence so that they can do that work without fear of favor, and without being overly meddled with by people with partisan and political agendas, because that is anathema to any effective oversight. Senator Peters. All right. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, POGO has raised concerns about both President Biden's and President Trump's use of Presidential pardons. This Administration has claimed to care about fraud, and yet President Trump has pardoned a staggering number of convicted fraudsters. To date, he has pardoned over two dozen criminals who committed a combined nearly $3 billion in financial crimes and fraud. These pardons also rob victims of approximately $1.3 billion in restitution payments. They were given to people like Lawrence Duran, who committed $205 million in Medicare fraud, and Trevor Milton, who committed $680 million in securities fraud. Mr. Milton and his wife, not surprisingly, donated $2.5 million to the Presidential campaign. My question for you, sir, is how would you describe pardoning criminal fraudster campaign donors as an effort to combat fraud? Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. I would describe it as a completely nonsensical approach to rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse. Again, it undermines any claims one might have to caring about waste, fraud, and abuse to pardon convicted fraudsters. In the case of one Florida woman, a multiply convicted fraudster who was convicted once, got a commutation in Trump's first term, and then was convicted again and got a full pardon in the second term. That does not seem to be like the action of an entity that actually care about fraud. Perhaps it is just fraud when it is perpetrated by the right people or the wrong people. Senator Peters. What do you think Congress should do to rein in the misuse of Presidential pardon power? Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. This is a tricky one. The pardon power is, of course, constitutionally prescribed. It is pretty stark. I have a personal hobby horse view that an unconstitutional amendment to remove the pardon power should probably be considered, because it is a vestigial legacy of a sort of a monarchical view of the head of State, which is kind of the whole thing we are supposed to be against here in the United States. We don't like kings, so the pardon power is very much a divine right of king sort of concept. But barring that, I think there are some sort of commonsense constitutionally viable approaches to more transparencies, consultation, reporting and disclosure, and a stronger process from within the DOJ's Pardon Office. Senator Peters. Thank you. I have been proud to enact bipartisan legislation to improve government data analytics, enhance oversight capabilities, and prevent payments to dead people. However, challenges remain, especially as fraudsters have become more sophisticated and government systems and tools have, quite frankly, just not kept pace. In Fiscal Year 2025, government agencies estimated that $186 billion of improper payments were made. My question for you, Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, is what practical solutions should Congress prioritize to prevent improper payments and stop fraudulent behavior while still protecting critical programs that Americans rely on every day? Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. Thank you. Front end verification is really important. I believe Chairman Paul referred to this in his opening statement. We do not do enough of that. But also end-to-end transparency, reporting and disclosure at every step along the spending and funding chain is critically important. We also do not do much of that. I do not need to tell you all this there in Congress, but the appropriations process is you all doing your thing with the money, it goes to Federal agencies, then Federal agencies award it out to prime recipients. But then those prime recipients tend to parcel is out and award it to a whole range of different sub-awardees and sub-recipients. That is where we really lose any meaningful insight into where the money is going, who is ending up with it, what is the impact that it is having. If there is one sort of key close to a silver bullet I would recommend it is getting our hands around sub-award reporting and transparency all the way up and down the chain, from end to end. Senator Peters. Thank you. Chairman Paul. I think that hits on the point, is the payment is all coming from the Federal Government, but the people signing them up are not connected to the payment. They are in the States, they are local, they want to help people. Let's help more people, and they add all the people to it, but they are not paying for it. You have to have the same people paying for it that are signing the people up. Until you connect those two people, you will continue to have this problem. Senator Lankford. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LANKFORD Senator Lankford. Senator Paul, thanks for holding this hearing, as well. To all of you and the work that you do to help identify fraud and waste, thank you for the work on that. It is really about sunshine and trying to expose this out. For nine years I have been releasing what my team calls ``Federal Fumbles,''\1\ where we just outline where are areas that we see on waste and abuse and loss of Federal dollars, overregulation, and we throw those out there. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The Federal Fumbles report appears in the Appendix on page 113. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- What has been interesting is we have seen the same thing you have. When we identify the areas of waste, people shrink back away from it and say, OK, now we are going to try to be able to deal with this. It is the sunshine that really does make a difference, and what you are doing is bringing things to light on this. We have identified things like, in 2023, the State Department was funding drag shows in Ecuador. The NEA was doing a social media game to increase physical activity in older women and creating a social media activity, which inherently you sit there for that. There was an NEA-created production of what they called the ``Fat Pig,'' which was an opera to tell the story of a plus- sized women who falls in love with a man who has, ``a normal body.'' We also did an National Institutes of Health (NIH) study that gave a research grant to be able to outline the history of tobacco use in Russia. We can go on and on and on through this. There are multiples that are out there. The Biden administration did a $250 million study in NIH to be able to study how to transition mice and monkeys into a different sex, and how to create transgender mice and monkeys. All of those, once we exposed them, went away. All of them. So the challenge is trying to be able to highlight it, but also to be able to find it in advance. I want to run several questions past you, and I have several big issues. Mr. Shirley, how are you identifying initially what you are actually finding? Like what is the tip that you are saying I think there may be fraud there? How are you identifying that? Mr. Shirley. Yes, a lot times I go through these databases and look for the largest amount of funding and then also looking for the anomalies that come. For instance, in New York City, at these adult daycares, there were 7,899 patients enrolled into an adult daycare, and they received $12.9 million. I go to that daycare. There is only one floor, and it would be, quite frankly, impossible to enroll that many patients into that daycare. Senator Lankford. Yes. It is just going through the available public data on it. Mr. Shirley. Yes, and then also relying upon Americans. For instance, I learned about the Minnesota fraud from Minnesotans. I went there and they told me, ``Hey, finally you are here to make a video on the fraud.'' I said, ``What are you talking about?'' and they said, ``Well, this fraud is happening. '' Then after that, for six months, I looked for that information about the fraud. Senator Lankford. Great. All right. That is very helpful on this. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, I have a question that is a followup question on this. I am a big advocate for GAO and for Inspectors General. You and I have talked about that before. They are incredibly important to us. They are the investigators that Congress has hired basically to be able to put in these different agencies and be able to do oversight. The problem is they have the same access to data that Mr. Shirley has. When we get reports back from them they are written very general, many times, and there is no specifics, and we are not really able to highlight this kind of information, getting the practical information out. The problem is not GAO and the Inspectors General. It is getting the data and the information from them in the rawest form. They could have done this same thing that Mr. Shirley did but they did not. What would you suggest to help push good folks there to be able to take the next step and expose what is out there? Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. Thank you, Senator Lankford, and if I might just for one moment, I just wanted to extend my appreciation to you for your work for years, starting in the House, on the Taxpayers Right to Know Act, which you know this well, of course, but I do not know if everyone in this room does, but it created, for the first time, a Federal program inventory, which seemed kind of counterintuitive that such a thing did not exist for a long time. But thanks to your work on that bill, it now does exist. I commend you for your longstanding commitment to transparency and oversight when it comes to Federal programs. Senator Lankford. I appreciate that. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. In response to your question, I agree with you that sometimes GAO reports--I love a good GAO report, but they are often kind of a higher level of abstraction. They are still extremely valuable, I think. But I think sometimes GAO can get a little bit tentative if it gets too specific. Senator Lankford. I describe them as safe. They are trying to write a safe report on a bad issue of fraud. I do not need safe. I need raw information. That is what Mr. Shirley is actually bringing, and saying this is the raw information. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. Yes, I would be happy to see that, too. I think creating more independence, as I mentioned earlier, for GAO, could help with that problem, because they would feel less insecure and less scared of potentially setting some particular constituency who may, in fact, have control over their budget. So part of this is you really want watchdogs to be as much as possible within the bounds of constitutional allowability. You want them to be as independent as possible, so that they can do their work without fear or favor. Senator Lankford. OK. That is helpful. Mr. O'Keefe, I am just going to make a comment to you. Thank you for the work that you are doing on trying to be able to expose issues in our election security. In Oklahoma we have a very secure election system, and we work very hard on that, verifying. We have voter ID. If you are going to do mail-in balloting you have to have a notary to be able to verify that is actually you. We go through a lot of steps to be able to make sure we secure our election. I wish that was so in every State, but it is incredibly important for the trust that we actually have that. I just wanted to tell you I appreciate the work that you are doing, and I look forward to getting to have a chance to read more of what you are doing. Mr. O'Keefe. Thank you. Chairman Paul. Senator Scott. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR SCOTT Senator Scott. Chairman, wouldn't a Democrat go next, since a Republican just testified? Chairman Paul. If there were a Democrat here, yes. Senator Scott. So there are no Democrats present at a hearing about fraud. Chairman Paul. There does not appear to be a great deal of interest across the aisle. Senator Scott. Senator Scott. Thank you. It is hard to believe, isn't it? First up, thank you all for caring about election security. Mr. O'Keefe, your team returned to Skid Row after the DOJ indicted somebody for election fraud and found the same operation running openly. Cash for signatures, fake voter data, and coaching on forgery. Walk us through what you documented and what it tells you about whether the indictment deterred anybody, how widespread is the model beyond Skid Row in Los Angeles? Based on your investigation, do you think this model could easily be replicated in other states and cities around the country? Mr. O'Keefe. Thank you, Senator. Yes, within seconds of appearing on Skid Row I personally, disguised as a homeless person, caught this behavior happening in broad daylight. So it is happening thousands of times. I wanted to mention the names of these organizations, these petitioners, that gather signatures to put on these initiatives in California. Urban Signers is one. One More Petition is another. Brenda Brown was indicted by the Department of Justice, but the question remains, who is on the top orchestrating all of this? That is something we intend to find out. I will be submitting to Senator Ron Johnson a request for subpoena to gather more information about that. Also, these people are logging in to an online database called SigValid.com, and pulling real names and voters. Those people's votes are disenfranchised. We went to their homes and we knocked on the door of them, and one of them said, ``What if I wanted to vote in this election?'' This is a completely nonpartisan, nonpolitical issue. Mayor Karen Bass, the L.A. District Attorney's Office (DA), and the Governor of California did not criticize me. They actually put statements out saying this is outrageous and needs to be exposed. Senator Scott. So what has happened? Mr. O'Keefe. The Department of Justice has indicted, but nobody in the State of California has yet arrested or prosecuted these people. Senator Scott. What as Gavin Newsom done? Mr. O'Keefe. Put out a statement condemning the stuff that we exposed in the tape. That is it. Senator Scott. Doesn't he have investigation authority? Mr. O'Keefe. He does in the State of California. Senator Scott. Doesn't Karen Bass? Mr. O'Keefe. She does. Senator Scott. And is it against the law? Mr. O'Keefe. It is. It is a State crime, fraudulently putting somebody else's name on a California ballot petition. Senator Scott. They are not going to prosecute this. If it wasn't for the Federal Government, nothing would happen. Mr. O'Keefe. I'm sorry? Senator Scott. If it wasn't for the Federal Government, nothing would happen. Mr. O'Keefe. So far, we have to put tremendous pressure and find a way to incentivize these elected officials to do the right thing. Senator Scott. Have they also impacted ballot initiatives in California with invalid signatures? Mr. O'Keefe. Yes. These signatures are regarding California State elections. Senator Scott. OK. These NGO's, can you find out where they are getting Federal money, county money? Mr. O'Keefe. Yes. We did covertly interview some of the NGO's across the street. Weingart is one. They received hundreds of millions of dollars of funding. These NGO's are located literally across the street from the fraud that is happening. I testified that one man who represented himself as an NGO pretended to be a police officer, to intimidate my news organization from reporting on this abuse. That is also a State crime. The NGO's see it happening, and in our story actually encouraged it. They said, ``Here is where you can do the cash for ballots.'' Those NGO's receive billions of dollars of Federal funding. Senator Scott. So why are they getting it? What are they getting the money for? Under what premise do they get money? Mr. O'Keefe. It is the California homeless industrial complex. They are there to help, protect, and advance the mission of supporting the homeless population. But our reporting showed that the homeless here are actually the victims. We interviewed a lot of the homeless, and they were testifying to me that they were being taken advantage of. All it takes is a few cigarettes and marijuana, a few dollars, which does not sound like a lot to you and I but it helps them buy a cheeseburger. They are the victims, and that is what they told us. Senator Scott. Did you follow the Spencer Pratt race? They are the victims, and that is what they told us. Mr. O'Keefe. I did. Senator Scott. Were you surprised that he went from being the runner-up to being out of the race? Mr. O'Keefe. All I can do, and all I can think about is tracing who is behind this fraud at the top. That is my interest, and that is my priority. Because all the stuff you see out there is all circumstantial evidence. But what the U.S. Attorney told me is the fact that we caught the cash exchange on camera it led to an indictment. I want to know who is orchestrating it at the top, and I intend to find out. Senator Scott. Do you think the U.S. Attorney will go after the NGO? Mr. O'Keefe. He did what he told me he said he was going to do, but we need non-circumstantial evidence. We need direct cash payments, on tape, incontrovertible evidence for the Department of Justice to do their job. I feel like that is my role. I feel citizen journalists do not have to deal with bureaucracy. We could just go there and get the story in a day, and that is what we intend to do. Senator Scott. Thanks for what you are doing. Chairman Paul. Senator Moreno. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MORENO Senator Moreno. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing. Let me just point out, again, for the record, that I think preventing fraud in government should be completely nonpartisan. It is not a Democrat issue or a Republican issue. Yet almost the entirety of the Republican dais is filled with people sitting here, listening to the entire hearing, and literally the entire Democrat dais is empty. I think that is, quite frankly, a disgrace. I think it is a disgrace that people pay taxes to know that there is an entire party that does not care whether taxpayer money is burnt. I think it is absolutely, completely outrageous. Mr. Shirley, I will start with you. The previous Comptroller General of the GAO had been in office since 2011. What were you doing in 2011? Mr. Shirley. Playing football and basketball. Senator Moreno. What grade were you in? Mr. Shirley. At that time I was nine years old. Senator Moreno. Nine? Gotcha. So you were nine years old, and this person served for 15 years in government. We have this idea that maybe if we double down on that process that failed for 15 years that somehow we would be better off. Yet you went in, at your risk, and exposed fraud. I am going to take a different angle. How does it make you feel as somebody who is 25 years old to know that your generation is going to pay the bill for everything that has happened right now. We have $40 trillion in debt. Yet your generation is going to pay the price. Mr. Shirley. Yes, I think that is the sad thing, is my generation is the one who is affected the most from this fraud and from the national debt. It is extremely hard for anyone my age to buy a home, even to just be able to accumulate the money to have a down payment inside your bank account. It is very hard. When you see a fraudster who literally opens up a learning center and they receive $1.9 million, and that was going on for years and no one ever did anything about it, all this oversight. Like everyone knew about the fraud but everyone was too afraid to talk about the fraud because of what would happen to them. Senator Moreno. What do you mean by what would happen to them? Is it impolite to say that somebody is defrauding the government because there is some certain race or gender or national origin? Is that somehow racist to say, ``You should not steal money from the Federal Government''? Mr. Shirley. It is not racist, but politically it can be seen as racist. They may be Islamophobic or a racist, quite frankly. Senator Moreno. I think ``Profiles in Courage'' would not be something that would be written about the current members of the Democratic Party, for sure. Because again, you would agree that they are just afraid of being labeled that way, and that fear drives them away from even attending a hearing like today? Mr. Shirley. Yes, definitely. It is very sad to see that that is their priorities, is to make sure that they are not labeled as a racist or Islamophobic for exposing fraud or for exposing what is happening inside a community. Quite frankly, they use the Somali population to commit the fraud. Ilhan Omar should be disgraced of what she did to the Somali population. Senator Moreno. When you look at people in your generation cannot afford a car, cannot afford a house, do not see how, in the future, you would be able to retire with any kind of dignity, and yet somebody can break into our country illegally, be provided a luxury hotel room in New York, three meals a day, maid service once a week, free education, free health care, what goes through your head when you think about that? Mr. Shirley. Like how does this happen? We are putting foreigners oftentimes above American citizens, and it is very sad to see. Senator Moreno. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, I want to drill back down to the numbers you provided because I want to make sure I heard them correctly. Again, we are here to talk about fraud. We can talk about waste in a different hearing. But we are here to talk about fraud. You mentioned in 2025, what was the number that you said? You knew the numbers off the top of your head pretty well. Impressive. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. GAO estimates that in Fiscal Year 2025, we issued $186 billion in improper payments. Senator Moreno. So $186 billion in 2025. From 2017 to 2020, which is President Trump's first term, that number by GAO is estimated to be $672 billion. Does that sound right? Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. I do not have that number off the top of my head, but it sounds right. Senator Moreno. Yes, generally. Again, GAO, citing their numbers. From 2020 to 2024, that number under Biden was $925 billion. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. I would point out 2020 is still the Trump administration. Senator Moreno. No. This is fiscal year, so this would start October 1st. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. OK. Senator Moreno. It was a 38 percent increase, and it has been massively cut back by President Trump in his second term. I do not know if that is the greatest case to be made, that the entire issue is because we have these inspectors general that have failed dramatically since the time Nick Shirley was playing basketball in his driveway when he was nine years old. I think what we need to do here, Mr. Chairman, is take this topic very seriously. I think the American people are sick and tired of hearings, honestly. I think they need to see people who are held accountable, that go to jail. Until we do that, I do not know that we have the confidence of people. I feel badly for Nick's generation, honestly. I do not know how they look at it and say, ``This government is just failing us.'' The sense of disenfranchisement with the American government. I just cannot wrap my head around the fact that Democrats care so little about this topic that they do not even show up. They did not show up at your session either, Senator Johnson, when we talked about this exact topic in your committee. Ultimately, if your elected leaders do not give a crap about how government spends money, it is an indictment on that. Even worse, the media just will not even talk about it. There will be more stories on cable news network (CNN) tonight about the Reflecting Pond being empty than the fact that you had a hearing today about trillions of dollars of fraud. That is the problem. The media is complicit. The Democrats are complicit, because that is ultimately, you have to think what keeps them in power. With that, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Paul. Senator Ernst. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST Senator Ernst. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this important hearing. I want to thank our witnesses for being here today, as well, because a lot of you are deciding to go face-to-face with a lot of the fraudsters that are ripping off our taxpayers, and you are exposing the corruption that the typical mainstream media and our Federal Government and State governments have been ignoring, and in some cases actually enabling. I have learned the hard way, through many years of working on fraud, waste, and abuse within the Federal Government, that this type of work does not earn you a lot of friends. Because of the work that all of you are doing I just want to say thank you so much on behalf of all of my Iowans and all of our taxpayers across the country. Americans are sending their tax dollars to Washington. You know what? They deserve to know how those taxpayer dollars are being spent. They need to know that the money that they have worked really hard for is being safeguarded and responsibly spent. I found this really shocking in a lot of the work that I have done, that every single day we are losing, as a Federal Government, $1.4 billion to fraud. That is not a week. That is not a month. That is every single day, $1.4 billion, and that is just to fraud. That does not include all of the waste and abuse that we have in the Federal Government. That is a lot of money that has gone missing without anybody noticing or, in some cases, even caring. I have always said it, but if you cannot find waste, fraud, or abuse in Washington, it is simply because you are not looking. You are not looking. Our witnesses have taken a hard look at this issue. I appreciate it. You have given Americans an opportunity to see what is happening with their own eyes, and because of that the content has gone viral. Nick, we all know this. We have all seen this. For the folks that are out there watching, YouTube journalist Nick Shirley's visit to the Quality Learning Center helped all of us learn how easy it is to get away with fraud in Minnesota.'' The Learning Center was given $10 million of taxpayer money to provide childcare, yet Mr. Shirley's footage showed that there were not even any children present. Despite what we were able to see with our own eyes, Minnesota officials insisted that the Learning Center and other questionable childcare centers exposed by Nick Shirley were, ``operating as expected.'' Folks, that is exactly the problem. It is the grift that keeps on giving. Mr. Shirley, too whistleblowers who are career civil servants with the Minnesota State Government testified before a committee that I chair that they reported suspected fraud, including with these childcare centers, years before you made it a national story. I want everyone to recognize this is not a Democrat/ Republican problem, because one of those witnesses is a Democrat. She is a lifelong Democrat, and she was a whistleblower, because why? Because some of the programs she was exposing for fraud, her family had relied upon when she was a child. She recognized that the dollars that were committed to some of these programs, with good intent, were not going to the families that truly needed those taxpayer dollars. Those two whistleblowers, guess what happened? They were retaliated against, because they brought the issue to light. Likewise, you are called a, ``delusional conspiracy theorist,'' by Minnesota Governor Walz and accused of, ``grandstanding'' by the state's Attorney General. Similarly, when you exposed Medicare hospice fraud in California, Governor Newsom's office responded by tweeting, ``Shirley is the fraud.'' Mr. Shirley, who do you think politicians are trying to stop people like you who are exposing corruption rather than those who are actually committing the fraud? Mr. Shirley. First off, it is very sad that two Governors of the United States would even post that about somebody who is exposing fraud. All I have done is try to help America, and I have done. They, quite frankly, aren't. That is why they are so angry about it, because they actually rely upon the fraud in order to continue to push their agendas inside their states. That is why they get so mad when the fraud gets exposed, because that money oftentimes goes back into the hands of not necessarily the politicians but what fuels those politicians to be able to do what they want to do inside their State. Senator Ernst. Right. It is a sad state of affairs. But what we see every day, Washington is losing up to $521 billion to fraud every year. The Offices of Inspector General (OIG) have a combined yearly budget of nearly $4 billion. Similarly, GAO has an annual budget of more than $800 million. I share that because they have hundreds of investigators and auditors at their disposal. Do you have billions of dollars at your disposal and endless resources to enable you to uncover fraud? Mr. Shirley. No, not at all. In fact, I have to spend tens of thousands of dollars just to stay safe now. Senator Ernst. Yes. Mr. Shirley. Posts just like that from Governors of the United States of America. Senator Ernst. Exactly. With very little resources you have been able to uncover fraud, and yet our Federal Government does not seem to be able to track it down. I know I am out of time. I have gone over. But it does not take millions and billions of dollars to expose fraud. We have to do a better job. I do have a bill, a package, that I have proposed. Senator Thune has charged me with doing this. A number of people, including the Chair, have bills, anti-fraud bills, that have been included in this anti-fraud package. We are hoping to be able to move it on the floor of the Senate very soon. It really is a commonsense move to doing the right thing for our taxpayers. I really appreciate it, Senator Paul. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, for holding this hearing. We need to take care of this issue. It is the right thing to do. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman Paul. Senator Moody. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MOODY Senator Moody. Mr. Chairman, I think this is one of the most important hearings that we have had. I am one of the newest United States Senators, which just proves that the least senior people can actually move and be the loudest. This is one of the most important things that we could be doing right now as a Congress, and it comes right to me, another Republican, because there is not another Democrat here to question any of you who represent a wide swath of the political spectrum, I imagine, on what is happening right now in our country. I appreciate my colleague, Senator Ernst. We are going to miss her immensely and her fight against fraud and waste in this country. I am going to miss her immensely. As many of you know, she is retiring from the Senate. But I thank her for putting up these tweets as a reminder. Actually, you spoke about this. I love that you are, by the way, 24 years old, and you took something you started, I want to say as young as 16 or something, disrupting things, and man, does this bureaucracy, and I would say cover-up, need disrupting, and boy, does it take somebody like you that is fine with that, because you are driven by passion for protecting your generation, because you are coming after all of us and will fee this immensely in the debt that you inherit. I am so grateful to you for showing up here and showing that age, no matter your age, no matter where you are from, Americans should demand that their government is accountable to them and are good stewards of their money. Boy, am I so impressed by you, and I hope that your family is, as well. But I am so glad that we have these because I just want to point out, this is nothing that I prepared for, but Tim Walz, Governor of Minnesota, do you remember when he wanted to be our Vice President and was bragging that all of these types of new small businesses were reasons why he should be trusted with leading---- Mr. Shirley. Yes. Senator Moody [continuing]. And now we are determining what all these small businesses, like the Learning Center, were. He used this as a reason that he gave the American people of why he should leave. Why are we surprised that immediately he is defensive and comes after a young kid that is trying to point out, on behalf of his generation, where this money is really going and this fraud. Look at what the leader of California said. Did he really say, in response to you uncovering just astronomical fraud and waste--and I want to quote this because I am appalled by it. Did he really say ``Slow Shirley is the fraud''? Mr. Shirley. Yes, he did. Senator Moody. I did not misread that? That was not misprinted? Mr. Shirley. No. Senator Moody. Somebody that wants to be the leader of the Democratic Party and show his great, I guess, character, is demeaning you and calling you names and ridiculing you? Really? Mr. Shirley. Yes. That is Gavin Newsom. Senator Moody. I would suggest that anyone could see what this is. This is, oh, my goodness, we just got caught. Let's throw out a bunch of blood in the water, go after other people, make sure people blame it on somebody else. But do not pay attention to us. What is that, like ink? Mr. Shirley. Yes. Gavin Newsom, just yesterday, he is giving out $20 million to local journalists. They are going to be able to get grants of $250,000 to do journalism inside of California. He is essentially paying for good press with our tax dollars, as well. Senator Moody. I have to also commend my other colleague, Mr. Johnson, who is saying in California instead of the Stop Nick Shirley Act they should call it Protect Fraudsters Act? I mean, truly, this should be a wake-up call to everyone in America that the people that the Dems want to put in charge of their parties and in charge of their government, as soon as something is brought to their attention, in a good faith way, their response is not to say, ``Let's roll up our sleeves and dig in.'' The response is to say, ``Nothing to see here. The person they are bringing up is''--let me make sure I have this--``slow and a fraud himself.'' Let's propose legislation not only so that we can keep covering it up, but that we can go after them. Mr. Shirley. Yes, and I will add this to be on the record. Never once has a Democrat politician ever congratulated me or said ``thank you for exposing this,'' or even reached out to say, ``Hey, maybe come check out what's happening inside of our State.'' They are, quite frankly, complicit in the fraud. That is why none of them are here today. Senator Moody. Complicit? Trying to cover up something? Aiding and abetting? Mr. Shirley. One hundred percent. Senator Moody. Promoting their own political careers over taxpaying, hard-working Americans? I thank you. There is an entire fraud economy. I thank President Trump and his administration that is uncovering this. It is positive news that they are uncovering more and more of it, but it is sad that we are seeing so much of it. When I came to Washington I was like, we need to take a machete to all of the bureaucracy, all of the ``this has always been.'' Every time I bring up a problem, the Dem response is, ``We have always had fraud. We have always had coercion of individuals. We have always had this.'' But they never once say, ``Let's do something about it.'' I would actually ask my colleagues, I have proposed, in response to this, if we want to do something about it, if we want to be aggressive we need to start proposing solutions. I thank my colleague, Senator Ernst. I have also proposed the Stop Child Care Scams Act, the Stop Fraud in Medicaid Aid, the No Aid for Ghost Students Act, Punishing Health Care Fraudsters Act. This is just a few that we are working on with my colleague, Senator Schmitt. We have launched a Senate task force against fraud. I know they do not like to talk about fraud. They get really itchy when we talk about any kind of fraud, especially election fraud. Instead of saying, ``OK, let's explore what people are saying,'' or trying to discredit them, or picking someone that knows nothing about it when they come into a hearing and saying, ``Did President Trump win the election?'' The person would have no way of knowing. Making them say that, and CC they said that, instead of actually exploring fraud and doing something about it. I think we need to make sure that we do not just address it, we do not just ask what we can do, but we bolster the American people's trust in our elections. The way we do that is to follow the Florida blueprint. We used to be a national embarrassment with the hanging chads, getting ballot results after everybody went to sleep, days later. Within just two decades we have turned that around. We have results by bedtime. People trust Florida elections. We can do that in this Nation, which is why I want to propose legislation that says ballots by Election Day, ballots by Election Day, so people have faith in the results of their elections. Mr. O'Keefe, and I am over time, but is this something you think would bring better trust by Americans in our elections, if we could announce results by Election Day, ballots in by Election Day, excluding military, of course? Mr. O'Keefe. Senator, I do. Citizenship verification answers whether a person is eligible, but it does not answer whether the applicant is that person. That is what we saw in California. Federal reform should require identity to be verified before a registration gets active. I think Congress should look at that, as well. Senator Moody. Thank you, and thank you for being here today, all of you. We very much appreciate it. Chairman Paul. Senator Hawley. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HAWLEY Senator Hawley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thanks to the witnesses for being here. Mr. Shirley, I just want to start with you. I, for my part, want to say thank you for the terrific work you have done on exposing fraud all across the country, nowhere more so than in the State of Minnesota. It is a funny thing. Not long ago, the Attorney General of the State of Minnesota was sitting right where you are sitting, Keith Ellison, and I had a question or two for him about the fraud in that State. He said to me that, ``Oh, oh, nobody could have found it.'' I mean, he didn't know anything about it. He was completely in the dark until it was all blown open and there was just nothing that would have tipped him off. I find that interesting because near as I can tell, you were a 24-year-old independent journalist, you had a camera and a list of public spending records, right? Mr. Shirley. Correct. Senator Hawley. If this fraud was so hard to find, how did you manage to find it when none of the public officials in Minnesota could find it? Mr. Shirley. I simply went to the locations of the Learing Centers and the daycares and asked to enroll a child, and there was no way to enroll a child into any of these daycares. In fact, there were no children to be seen anywhere. Senator Hawley. In other words, you asked a few questions and you looked. You actually looked to see if there was fraud. Mr. Shirley. Yes. Senator Hawley. You found it wide open, everywhere, rampant. Mr. Shirley. Everywhere. Senator Hawley. Everywhere. Mr. Shirley. In a lot of the Medicaid programs inside of Minnesota, from the non-emergency school vehicles, the transportation companies. Senator Hawley. I find it so interesting because Keith Ellison, when he was Attorney General, way back in 2018, 2019-- I think we have a poster\1\ to this effect--was actually told, and had multiple referrals made to his office, about fraud in some of the very programs that you looked at. I mean, this is years ago now. He had official referrals made to him. He said, ``I just couldn't find any evidence of the fraud.'' --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The poster referenced by Senator Hawley appears in the Appendix on page 149. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you think maybe there is a little bit of corruption at the governmental level in the State of Minnesota? I mean, is that just maybe a possibility? Maybe some of these guys may be on the take, you think? I mean, possible? Mr. Shirley. It is not even maybe or possibly. It is a certainty. Senator Hawley. Yes, I would say so too, and I can prove it to you. Keith Ellison, that guy, after overlooking $250 million in fraud, he took $10,000 in campaign contributions from the very people who were committing the fraud, who came to see him in his office, asked him to please get State investigators off of their backs, which he did, asked him to shut down the investigations, which he helped with, offered to give him money, which he accepted. I think that is the answer to why can't any of these people find the fraud, because they are getting paid by the fraudsters. Here you are, 24 years old, got a camera, got the public records, asking a few questions, and it is everywhere to be seen. I mean, this kind of corruption, and it is what, sadly, the Democratic Party wants to bring to this country all across America. I do not know why guys like Ellison are not being prosecuted, I have to tell you. He just sat there and lied under oath, right where you are sitting now. I asked him why he took this money. He said, ``Well, I didn't take a dime.'' He took $10,000. It is on the record. I just want to commend you for what you have done. Mr. O'Keefe, I want to thank you for being here, as well, and I want to thank you particularly for your investigations, so many of them, but particularly those into anti-Christian bias. I want to ask you just about Trevor Williams, of the Washington Nationals. You found that Trevor Williams was shut down, he was muffled, he was gagged by his own team because he had the audacity to say that he did not think that this poster--I think we have a picture of this--that this outrageous desecration of The Last Supper\1\ by this group that calls itself the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, which is an anti- Christian group that actively mocks Catholics and other Christians. He said he did not like this, and for that reason, if I remember correctly, the Washington Nationals tried to shut him down. Tell us just about what your investigation found. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The last supper poster appears in the Appendix on page 151. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. O'Keefe. This is involving the Washington Nationals baseball team and civil rights violations and anti-Christian bias. The Washington Nationals has fired this vice president for his bias against Christians. It is part of our expose exposing officials in corporations and in the administrative state, the deep state, breaking the law, pushing back. We have another one coming out inside the Pentagon in the next few days, with similar themes. Senator Hawley. I look forward to that. Let me just say this. Were you surprised at all, given your investigation in the Trevor Williams incident, were you surprised at all when the Commissioner of baseball, just a few weeks ago, threatened to penalize and fine two players on the Giants who put bible verses onto their, one on their cap, and I think one on their jersey. The commissioner of baseball came out and said, ``That's against our rules. We are going to fine you.'' It was absolutely outrageous. Did that surprise you, given the sort of systemic bias, if I could use that phrase that you found? Mr. O'Keefe. Well, nothing surprises me. There is a lot of irony and absurdity in reality. It does not shock me, and I think sunlight, to quote Brandeis, is the best disinfectant. They might do some things in open, but I think it is possible to shame the devil by capturing these candid remarks, behind closed doors, where they really talk about their intent and their motivation. That video caused a firestorm. To quote Nick Shirley, the video does not film itself. The citizen journalists get to show up and do the thing, and I think it is more difficult for bureaucrats to do that. So citizen journalists are going to do it. Senator Hawley. That is great. I am glad you are doing what you are doing, and I think partly because of what you expose, the kind of bias you exposed in the Trevor Williams case, the commissioner of major league baseball had to back down---- Mr. O'Keefe. Yes. Senator Hawley [continuing]. When we confronted him on this issue, and admit, actually, the rules permit the players to write these things on their jerseys as they so choose. They permit the players to forego wearing politically themed jerseys at all. He committed to me, in writing, that one of these players will ever be fined or disciplined for expressing their faith. But you and I both know, he would not have done that had he not been embarrassed by the facts that you and others brought forward. So thank you for your work. Mr. O'Keefe. Thank you. Senator Hawley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Paul. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I think a video might be worth ten thousand words. It has been said that, well, these are sensationalistic, and this is not the proper way to do it, young man, and we should not be doing this, and leave this to the government. But I think the point has also been made very clearly, the government has these inspectors general, has the GAO. I am a fan of both of those groups, but I do not know if they have any inspectors that actually go out on the road, any video, anybody is going and checking on this. I think what you have shown people is what can happen with pictures, I mean, with video. The pictures made a big difference. As you said, you have seen a normal virality of these videos. But there have actually been indictments, I think at least 15 indictments. Ninety million, 100 million, I mean, an enormous amount of money now is being recovered and been found to have been misspent. I think that when we look at things sometimes, though, we get lost in just the bad people, and there are bad people, and there always will be bad people. That is why we have to police things. Companies do it instantaneously. Visa, they are instantaneously catching fraud. Your bank is catching fraud. Everybody is. So we scratch our head and ask why isn't government? Why didn't government have someone like Nick Shirley that worked for them? Why weren't we doing this? There is a systemic problem, and the systemic problem is worth looking at, because systemic problems can fix thousands of downstream problems. The systemic problem is basically this. You sign up for welfare at the State level; the payment comes from the Federal level. The States look at Federal payment as free, because we have a printing press up here. We add it to the national debt, the $40 trillion debt, the numbers that are spiraling out of control. But food stamps, Medicaid, you sign up at the State level. If you tell a State that we are going to pay for 90 percent or 100 percent of Medicaid if you expand it, is there any incentive for them to check people's credentials to make sure they are eligible for Medicaid, or for food stamps? Is there any incentive to go like you did to the autism center? No, because they are not paying for it. So the states have no incentive. One of the things Senator Johnson and I, and several others, wanted to get added to the bill last year was trying to change some of these percentages. Ever since Obamacare, Obamacare enticed all of the States to expand Medicaid, and a lot of these programs come under the auspices of Medicaid. The government paid 100 percent of it for like three years, and now, 15 years later, the government is still paying 90 percent. The rest of Medicaid is closer to 50/50 or 45/55, so the States have some skin in the game. If they allow too much fraud to occur they are paying for part of the fraud. But if 90 percent of it is paid by the Federal Government, you are not paying for fraud. We had a proposal that would have changed the formula back to this split formula, where States pay about half and the Federal Government pays half. I think it was an $800 billion savings over about 10 years. We have to do the fraud. We have to police the fraud. We should be learning from what you guys are doing with investigative reporting. We should hire investigations. If we like inspectors general, why don't they have a team of investigators that are going out and doing what you are doing? We should do that, but we also have to, as a legislature, look at these ratios and at these split performances, and you have to connect them. The people paying have to be doing the oversight. Some of it is happening, but only because you brought it to light. Without these videos, that some are calling sensationalistic, there would be none of this. It just went on, year after year, decade after decade. I think this is the tip of the iceberg, and I commend you for what you have both done with exposing this. As far as the subpoena power, I am happy to work with Senator Johnson on this. I think we can look into particularly the harvesting. In Wisconsin, when they had the mass mail-in ballots in 2020, when probably, what, over half of your ballots were cast by mail, there was said to be 100,000 that were not even signed, that there was no witness signature. We should be looking into the harvesting. If there is evidence that with harvesting people are harvesting ballots in an illegal or illegitimate way, that should be looked into. I am happy to look at these companies, and we are happy to work with both of you on any information you have to bring to us. I, for one, commend you for your work on this and what you have brought to our attention. I think Senator Johnson had another question or two. Senator Johnson. I do, and actually along the same lines. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, aren't you as disappointed as I am? I have been doing this now for 16 years. We have people come in. I have been supportive of IGs. I have been supportive of the GAO. It just has not worked. I know in your testimony you say that IGs have saved $71 billion. I mean, that is probably reported self-serving type of report. But we still have $250 billion to $1 trillion of fraud occurring. It is just not working. Senator Paul is putting his finger on the problem here. When it is free money, you do not care about it. In his opening statement he talked about what private sector companies do to prevent fraud on the front end. That is what we have to do. I would really encourage POGO, rather than let's fund more IGs, let's put more money into GAO, again, I am supportive of it if it would work, but it doesn't, and recognize that. We are either going to have to completely reform how those bodies operate, but we have to look at the root cause of these things. We have to align the incentives. I mean the 9 to 1 match, it is legalized fraud, in Medicaid, in provider fees, in provider taxes. That is not health care. I literally had a hospital lobby me when we passed the Big Beautiful Bill that was going to restrain the percent of provider taxes. Wisconsin is pretty light, they are 1.8. Passed a bill right away to go to six percent. Apparently did not do it quickly enough so Dr. Oz was not going to give us the waiver to allow us to increase the provider tax up to six percent. I had a hospital, through an intermediary, lobby me to say, ``Try and get Dr. Oz to grant us that waiver, because we will be able to charge a $12 million provider tax. We will get reimbursed for $18 million. So we will come out $6 million ahead.'' They are not even thinking. You literally are asking for government to allow you to tax your customers $12 million so you can make an addition $6 million. Again, it is legalized fraud. Until we are willing to address the root cause of the problem, that all this free Federal Government money is not being administered by the States properly--they do not care. They do not care to check eligibility. They get credit for providing all this health care for all their citizens. They do not care about the eligibility. They do not care that a third of the hospice centers are in Los Angeles County, that when you defund 400 of them none of them even complain. They just do not care. I guess that is my question to you. How does POGO, which I think is a great organization, focus on the root cause, focus on the legalized fraud, the way these programs are set up. Do you want to comment on that? Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. Yes, if you would not mind, Senator. Thank you so much. One thing I just want to point out, and this has been brought up a couple other times. GAO, inspectors general, these oversight entities, they are, at their core, providers of information. They have no power to change legislation or to change policy. When they expose things or when they tell you here is how you can save X amount of dollars, they cannot actualize that savings. They can come to Congress and ask you all to do those things, but then it is up to Congress. Congress is the body that can actually change the law, change policy. I think it is just like a little bit unfair to say that we still have fraud because GAO and the IGs are not working. Senator Johnson. I completely agree. GAO has all these reports, but they do not get implemented. They do not get implemented because if you say you want to actually reduce the legalized fraud in Medicaid, we get accused of slashing it. Do you realize Medicaid is about 10 percent year over year? We did not cut Medicaid. We did not even begin to control it. Did not even scratch the surface. That is my point here, is we need to understand how pervasive and how rampant this fraud is. We need to address the actual problem, how these laws are written, to be taken advantage of, to create fraud, to let the fraudsters get away. We did not talk about potentially the foreign organizations in this. Correct? I mean, $700 million in cash-flowing out of the Minneapolis airport, back to countries in Africa? Have either of you gentlemen investigated the foreign sourcing on organization of a lot of this fraud? I mean, we are opening up to foreign governments to fund their own operations. Mr. Shirley. Yes, it has been proven that a lot of the money in suitcases left Minnesota and went back into the hands of people inside Somalia. For instance, in New York City (NYC), where I just did an expose exposing this adult daycare fraud, nobody at these daycares actually knows who the owner is. A lot of them have just been hired within the past month. In Miami you have the Cuban government running these Durable Medical Equipment (DME) companies that are fleecing and, quite literally, looting from Medicaid. A lot of foreign governments have infiltrated our Medicaid because it is so simple and so easy to defraud. Senator Johnson. By the way, we know it is $700 million because government watched it go out. They let it go. They did not even put the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) on the case. It is truly remarkable what we are allowing to happen here. Again, Mr. Chairman, I commend you, like Senator Ernst did, for holding this hearing, and Senator Moody, this is an incredibly important hearing, and it is speaks volumes, that only the Ranking Member showed up to denigrate Mr. Shirley's efforts, quite honestly. That is why he showed up. Not one of them are here talking about these hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars' worth of fraud that we cannot allow to continue, because we are mortgaging your future. But thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Paul. The autism centers that were abusing this, it is under which program, and did they sign up in the State? How do you sign up for the program? Mr. Shirley. Medicaid. I cannot say exactly what one it is. Chairman Paul. But it is part of Medicaid. Mr. Shirley. Part of Medicaid, yes. Chairman Paul. It gets back to this overarching, If we are talking big pools of money, Medicaid is this big pool of money, but it is split between the Federal and the State government. We do have to look at it. It is the only way we fix this. The thing is, people look at it and they say, oh, you don't want to take away health care from poor people. There is another way of looking at this, is what about preserving health care for the very poor people who do need it and getting rid of somebody that is able-bodied who is lying about a disability and is on Medicaid is actually taking money away from a deserving person. I think there is another way of looking at that. But people are very fearful of any kind of dollars. They think if you were to cut one dollar from Medicaid that it is being taken away. But if they can be made to see that, yes, you are taking away from some guy stealing $10, $15, or $20 million, or $700 million. I think this is a good hearing, and I think may lead us to some other things that we can talk about, both in the voting fraud atmosphere as well as more. So keep in touch with us and let us know more. Did you have a final comment, Senator Ernst, that you want to make? Senator Ernst. Of course. We always have a final comment. But no, again, just really appreciate our witnesses coming today and sharing information with us, and just reinforcing that we need to do our job as Congress, as well, to ensure that when we do identify areas of fraud and loopholes that exist within our code, that we take the initiative and close it up. But I would remind people that in order to do that we do have to have participation from Members on the left, because in the Senate we do require bipartisan movement on any piece of legislation that comes to the Senate floor. If they are not even willing to engage in a hearing, then it is unlikely that they are actually going to engage in code or law that will help us prevent fraud and recover those dollars for our American taxpayers. Thanks for not only exposing fraud today but exposing that we do not have support from the left on preventing fraud and actually moving legislation that would solve the problem. Again, thank you all for being here today. Thanks to the Chair for being willing to hold this hearing. Chairman Paul. I would like to thank our witnesses for joining us today, to share their testimony and expertise with the Committee. The record for the hearing will remain open until 5 p.m. on Friday, July 17, 2026, for the submission of statements and questions for the record. The hearing is now adjourned. Thank you. [Whereupon, at 1:30 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.] A P P E N D I X ---------- [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [all]